New Members?

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New Members?

Postby Woohoodude11 » Feb Sun 03, 2019 2:43 pm

Due to Cabin Fever, I've really been exploring the nooks and crannies of this forum. I noticed on the members page that the last to join was "Sgtlitko" last April. Are we closed to new members or is the members section just not updating?
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Re: New Members?

Postby Rambler » Feb Sun 03, 2019 3:31 pm

Probably not updating. Last time they 'upgraded' some feature/functions got left behind. For example, used to be when I got a PM the site would let me know via email. Don't work that way no more.
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Re: New Members?

Postby Aux Pleins » Feb Sun 03, 2019 4:19 pm

I know a couple old members have tried to retrieve lost passwords and have been totally shut out / ignored. You assume they could re-register under a new handle, but maybe that door is also shut?
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Re: New Members?

Postby RonG » Feb Sun 03, 2019 4:30 pm

Youtube embedding still doesn't work.
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Re: New Members?

Postby catchafew » Feb Sun 03, 2019 5:58 pm

For members who have been on the site for a while try to search some old posts that turned into famous flame wars, particularly where someone was pushing a business interest. Interesting enough the entire posts and threads disappeared.

I guess money still gets things done to eliminate bad PR. I guess I'd go the same if I was in their shoes.

I wish 1812 had a different outcome.
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Re: New Members?

Postby HEDDONFROG » Feb Mon 04, 2019 10:06 am

RonG wrote:Youtube embedding still doesn't work.


Ron, Phil was able to embed his videos. Might wanna ask him about that
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Re: New Members?

Postby Aux Pleins » Feb Mon 04, 2019 11:39 am

HEDDONFROG wrote:
Ron, Phil was able to embed his videos. Might wanna ask him about that


Which post?

His last post he only put links to his video from what I can tell.
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Re: New Members?

Postby RonG » Feb Mon 04, 2019 1:14 pm

I just tried 4 different ways and can't get embedding to work.
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Re: New Members?

Postby Phil6 » Feb Mon 04, 2019 1:42 pm

Aux Pleins wrote:
HEDDONFROG wrote:
Ron, Phil was able to embed his videos. Might wanna ask him about that


Which post?

His last post he only put links to his video from what I can tell.


Yea, I cant see the embedded videos unless im on Mobile
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Re: New Members?

Postby RonG » Feb Mon 04, 2019 1:48 pm

Maybe they'll read this and fix the problem. :roll:
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Re: New Members?

Postby FloridaRigger » Feb Mon 04, 2019 2:50 pm

i just tried creating a new user login but never got a confirmation email, so i think the site is broken
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Re: New Members?

Postby DasGoby » Feb Mon 04, 2019 5:54 pm

wonder if it would be possible to buy the site back from them. Can't be that much to do it.
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Re: New Members?

Postby FishinMatt » Feb Tue 05, 2019 11:12 am

I think Jason still has some limited control and access to some of these things. He would be the guy to facilitate fixing some of the issues.
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Re: New Members?

Postby RonG » Feb Tue 05, 2019 11:22 am

DasGoby wrote:wonder if it would be possible to buy the site back from them. Can't be that much to do it.


The same folks bought C L F.com, the other fishing site. I was told they paid $40,000 for it.
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Re: New Members?

Postby HEDDONFROG » Feb Wed 06, 2019 1:14 am

Hey lurkers, any of you recently sign up? Wait, what am I thinking, they're lurkers and don't post anything

I haven't received any notifications in well over a year. Either from posts or PM's. Not sure if anyone else is having the same issues
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Re: New Members?

Postby joetrain » Feb Wed 06, 2019 6:28 am

^^^^ sent you a pm.
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Re: New Members?

Postby Rambler » Feb Wed 06, 2019 12:33 pm

HEDDONFROG wrote:Hey lurkers, any of you recently sign up? Wait, what am I thinking, they're lurkers and don't post anything

I haven't received any notifications in well over a year. Either from posts or PM's. Not sure if anyone else is having the same issues

HEDDON: As we just discussed in our PMs I keep getting emails from that other site that this site won't allow me to mention by name (CLF) highlighting recent posts. So WTF? They f up the PM email notification feature on WCF but are sending out marketing emails from their other sort of funky if not downright shitty, site? Are they trying to tell us something?

Oh and BTW, I broke down & checked out the highlighted posts. One dated 12/29 was from a guy who said he'd found a new WWD. Had a link to googlemaps - Lake Carina. Is there actually a WWD there?
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Re: New Members?

Postby Woohoodude11 » Feb Wed 06, 2019 3:23 pm

Rambler wrote:Oh and BTW, I broke down & checked out the highlighted posts. One dated 12/29 was from a guy who said he'd found a new WWD. Had a link to googlemaps - Lake Carina. Is there actually a WWD there?

I can answer this. No. I just passed there on Monday and the entire lake was frozen. There IS a small pond with an inflow and outflow creek, but I'm yet to hear of anyone thats caught anything of substance out of it. I can see that MAYBE being a WWD but getting to it is a lot more treacherous than any of the Busse WWD's. There's a single beaten path you can get to from the main trail that would be pure mud this time of the year.
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Re: New Members?

Postby Busse Jim » Feb Wed 06, 2019 10:18 pm

There is a WWD about a quarter mile up the dpr from Carina. Might be talking about that. There’s a water reclamation plant on the east.
A well known river pro took me wading that stretch back in 13. Muddy and waste deep + north of 94. Fished up the wwd, 1-2’ deep. Heres a few picts

Found this just north of it
IMG_5536.JPG


That’s it right behind me and the pro downstream just under the tail
IMG_5541.JPG


You might recognize this guy
IMG_5537.JPG

Fun day
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Re: New Members?

Postby Aux Pleins » Feb Wed 06, 2019 10:30 pm

Rambler wrote:
HEDDONFROG wrote:Hey lurkers, any of you recently sign up? Wait, what am I thinking, they're lurkers and don't post anything

I haven't received any notifications in well over a year. Either from posts or PM's. Not sure if anyone else is having the same issues

HEDDON: As we just discussed in our PMs I keep getting emails from that other site that this site won't allow me to mention by name (CLF) highlighting recent posts. So WTF? They f up the PM email notification feature on WCF but are sending out marketing emails from their other sort of funky if not downright shitty, site? Are they trying to tell us something?

Oh and BTW, I broke down & checked out the highlighted posts. One dated 12/29 was from a guy who said he'd found a new WWD. Had a link to googlemaps - Lake Carina. Is there actually a WWD there?


No, not on the lake. :wink:
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Re: New Members?

Postby Aux Pleins » Feb Wed 06, 2019 10:32 pm

Busse Jim wrote:There is a WWD about a quarter mile up the dpr from Carina. Might be talking about that. There’s a water reclamation plant on the east.
A well known river pro took me wading that stretch back in 13. Muddy and waste deep + north of 94. Fished up the wwd, 1-2’ deep. Heres a few picts

Found this just north of it
IMG_5536.JPG


That’s it right behind me and the pro downstream just under the tail
IMG_5541.JPG


You might recognize this guy
IMG_5537.JPG

Fun day


Heard you did more swimming than fishing. :D
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Re: New Members?

Postby Busse Jim » Feb Wed 06, 2019 11:46 pm

Ha! You got that right :lol:

I was casting my newly found, Jaxon pike lure at a log about 5’ off the opposite bank.
Should have been casting to the pike around the log :sarcasm:

Caught the log and it wouldn’t let go, and the fireline wouldn’t break. Tried wading across and encountered boot sucking mud and water past my waist before even getting to the middle.
Only choice now was trust the fireline and fight that log.
Think you can guess what happened next. :roll:

Planted my feet, put my back into it, Lure rips free, but my feet didn’t, and I keel over backwards. Recovered in a second with one foot out of the boot, both arms and back of head wet but I had my lure! :D

Ha, we both went swimming in that first half hour. :P Joe went first
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Re: New Members?

Postby Aux Pleins » Feb Thu 07, 2019 8:27 am

That's some good stuff. I think we've all been humbled once or twice in the outdoors. Best not to have any witnesses :lol:
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Re: New Members?

Postby vman01 » Feb Thu 07, 2019 11:56 am

Enjoyed the pictures Busse Jim and the story. The Log fish that got away reminds me I need to go back to a DPR island and claim a Mepps that eluded me during high water in that area :oops: :oops: .

No WWD for Carina as others mentioned, just some drainage pipes for water run-off.
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Re: New Members?

Postby Rambler » Feb Thu 07, 2019 12:27 pm

Busse Jim wrote:Ha, we both went swimming in that first half hour. :P Joe went first

Worth it. I HATE losing lures. :D
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Re: New Members?

Postby polishfly » Feb Thu 07, 2019 2:03 pm

Any interest in making a new privately owned site? No offense to Jason or anyone else in charge but it might be an opportunity to carve out a new forum and have control of it?
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Re: New Members?

Postby Bassin' Ted » Feb Thu 07, 2019 4:38 pm

polishfly wrote:Any interest in making a new privately owned site? No offense to Jason or anyone else in charge but it might be an opportunity to carve out a new forum and have control of it?


Another option is a private Facebook page.
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Re: New Members?

Postby SmalliesNEyes » Feb Thu 07, 2019 4:50 pm

Bassin' Ted wrote:
polishfly wrote:Any interest in making a new privately owned site? No offense to Jason or anyone else in charge but it might be an opportunity to carve out a new forum and have control of it?


Another option is a private Facebook page.


Not everyone has FB. I'm one of those who chooses to avoid it at all costs. :lol:

Haven't had FB active in 7 years.
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Re: New Members?

Postby Rambler » Feb Thu 07, 2019 5:06 pm

^^^ X2. F facebook
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Re: New Members?

Postby UglyStick » Feb Thu 07, 2019 5:42 pm

Maybe when a new member tries to sign up, they keep getting pop-up ads over their information. :roll:
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Re: New Members?

Postby mike son » Feb Thu 07, 2019 5:59 pm

polishfly wrote:Any interest in making a new privately owned site? No offense to Jason or anyone else in charge but it might be an opportunity to carve out a new forum and have control of it?


https://www.proboards.com
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Re: New Members?

Postby Aux Pleins » Feb Thu 07, 2019 8:42 pm

Rambler wrote:^^^ X2. F facebook


X3... I quit sport fu#king broads when I hit 30.

Instagram has really killed the fishing forums, it's really a great thing for up to date reports. But these forums are great in their own right. Moderators are good thing to have. WCF always had tolerable, unbiased dudes. That's why it stood above the rest in Chicagoland.
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Re: New Members?

Postby FloridaRigger » Feb Fri 08, 2019 12:22 am

brookfield angler created a new forum right after this site was sold but only like 5 of us were posting there. not sure if he still has it up or not
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Re: New Members?

Postby Bassin' Ted » Feb Fri 08, 2019 6:21 am

Rambler wrote:^^^ X2. F facebook


There are some decent fishing pages on FB. A lot more traffic than this forum. IMO that is the biggest reason for the decline in popularity of the big 3 Chicago fishing sites. I don't have an Instagram account so I can't comment on that.
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Re: New Members?

Postby Woohoodude11 » Feb Fri 08, 2019 7:23 am

I got banned from Illinois Fishing Bandits less than a week in for calling out a mod on his bullshit. Posted a rant about no bullying and whatnot and an hour later went on a profanity laced tirade calling people bitches for not coming at him for posting that. I said something along the lines of the pot calling the kettle black and next things I know I was no longer welcomed there :lol: Come to think of it I think my exact words were "What a clown".

There's something to be said about a smaller, more intimate and controlled community. And if I saw one more post of someone calling a 2 lb'er a 5+ I was gonna blow my brains out. A lot of this "Googan" generation, a bulk of the Facebook demographic, just flat out wouldn't fit in an environment like this.

And going to the whole starting a new page type thingy...I still play that stupid Pokemon Go game. There's a chat app for gamers called "Discord" where you can link up with others in the area to perform tasks you can't do on your own. Just this past week, they changed some of the chat areas where you need to "opt in" to the area you live/play in. Literally something as simple as typing .iam Schaumburg Area. That's it. We're a week in and less than half of the community has adjusted and some people have flat out left over it. A new place for this forum would have a similar carryover I feel.
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Re: New Members?

Postby Aux Pleins » Feb Fri 08, 2019 8:19 am

Bassin' Ted wrote:
There are some decent fishing pages on FB..


Forgive me first of all, I have no knowledge of the Facebook world. Something I've heard once or twice is you can network with fishing only people or maybe the term I heard was 'fishing only clubs'. I'd hate to get onboard and have a feed full of political crap or even worse people posting pictures of themselves half wasted at the bar:roll:. Dont get me wrong Instagram has a ton of that, but it's easy to avoid.

It took me a while to get Instagram honed in to where I connect with local anglers and guides. But I've always been a huge fan of current up to day/week type reporting. Seems like theres a lot of posts happening live or on the very same day as the fishing outing that occurred. I also understand why guys can't get a report up right away or if they choose to do it a month later just to keep others off the bite. Doesn't mean I like it :D .
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Re: New Members?

Postby Rambler » Feb Fri 08, 2019 12:51 pm

In a perfect world or if the management of the company who owns WCF & CLF were up to snuff someone would be monitoring & taking note of these discussions. They would report it all to management who would get the picture that WCF regulars are getting restless & considering radical changes like moving to FB, setting up their own site, etc. Armed with this they'd make a plan to change the site and make it more responsive to our needs.

I know, I know, there I go again. Over the course of my career I moved in & out of management. When I was in I was told by the folks who reported (I asked them regularly) to me that I was really quite good. When I was out I got in all sorts of trouble explaining to management how they were supposed to do their jobs. I found that in the majority of cases the folks in management didn't belong there & had been promoted for all sorts of invalid reasons.

Long way of saying the management of this site ain't doing it right.
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Re: New Members?

Postby polishfly » Feb Fri 08, 2019 1:27 pm

Instagram eh? I may need to jump on that wagon
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Re: New Members?

Postby Woohoodude11 » Feb Fri 08, 2019 1:36 pm

polishfly wrote:Instagram eh? I may need to jump on that wagon

Blech IG is overrated for what we do in my opinion. I like reading long winded reports (like mine :wink: ) that tell a full story. IG is all about the picture.
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Re: New Members?

Postby FishinMatt » Feb Fri 08, 2019 7:08 pm

I miss the old days of the site when we had our Deep Lake tourneys, ice outings, WWD events, etc. This site was always grossly underrated even when the other sites were still popular. I always thought we ran things fairly although we certainly never pleased everyone. If there was anything I could do on my end to fix the issues we currently have I would, but my reach ends in the moderator forum. There certainly is a problem with new users because I have not even had to delete spam accounts in a very long time. For the last several years I still managed spam, reported posts, and the occasional disagreement. I'm not sure why I bothered anymore, but part of me will always love this site and what it once was. On a good note, there is virtually no need for me to moderate anything anymore with no spam and a solid group of guys who are respectful to one another.
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Re: New Members?

Postby HEDDONFROG » Feb Sat 09, 2019 4:17 am

polishfly wrote:Any interest in making a new privately owned site? No offense to Jason or anyone else in charge but it might be an opportunity to carve out a new forum and have control of it?


Believe me, I’ve pondered it heavily but when our move became a foregone conclusion, I nixed it. It’s funny but Rambler and I were just talking about the direction this thread went. My issues aren’t with anyone who are regular posters and I’ve always liked the archival format of the old-school forums like WCF, it’s the sheer fucking volume of non-contributors on the site. If I had a new site it would be contribute or you’re out. Period end of story. I wouldn’t even care if you just thanked those people who did post reports. There are several lurkers who’ve been “members” since 2007 who have 0, that’s ZERO posts and there are dozens and dozens of longtime zero post “members” that regularly log in. Fucking have a voice. Not that it bothers me or anything ;) I’m done with that topic because the level of integrity, skills, outright honesty and sense of genuine camaraderie of those 20-25 of us that do post make it worth the agro of some of the sites issues.

Paul please name one Facebook fishing group that doesn’t totally suck and I’ll sign up. I’m in one group currently (nationwide) and like Woo was banned on Illinois Fishing Bandits. I said something way worse than Woo did “Go Bears” on opening day. Rules clearly state you will be banned for non fishing posts. Wow. Woo is also correct about facebook & instagram being just places to post fish pics with zero information. The attached photo is 50% of Facebook fishing posts. The others are mostly stupid fishing memes (dozens daily) and a ton of shared links to other pages or links for products (Aux it’s all fishing related) There is no searching of older posts and posts aren’t archived in any manner. It’s not worth putting any real info in a fishing post because everyone just wants to see pics. No lure used, techniques, anything weather related, not even what state...on a national board. It’s crazy but! There are some good guys on there as well and that’s why I’m still on there.

Illinois fishing bandits is so exasperatingly annoying that it’s entertaining and when fishing picks up you guys who have facebook really need to join that group for entertainment purposes and then when you can’t take it anymore go ahead and say something to get yourself banned haha :D Oh and you’ll get to see a young guy who self proclaims himself “The GOAT of the Fox River” worth the sign up just for that. I corrected him in case you were wondering

I love new tech but instagram fishing and Facebook fishing is not the answer in its present form.
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Re: New Members?

Postby Woohoodude11 » Feb Sat 09, 2019 7:27 am

Seriously...what is that first picture. That is absolutely atrocious. If I caught a fish that size and someone took that trash of a pic I'd be furious.
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Re: New Members?

Postby Bassin' Ted » Feb Sat 09, 2019 8:39 am

HEDDONFROG wrote:
polishfly wrote:Any interest in making a new privately owned site? No offense to Jason or anyone else in charge but it might be an opportunity to carve out a new forum and have control of it?


Believe me, I’ve pondered it heavily but when our move became a foregone conclusion, I nixed it. It’s funny but Rambler and I were just talking about the direction this thread went. My issues aren’t with anyone who are regular posters and I’ve always liked the archival format of the old-school forums like WCF, it’s the sheer fucking volume of non-contributors on the site. If I had a new site it would be contribute or you’re out. Period end of story. I wouldn’t even care if you just thanked those people who did post reports. There are several lurkers who’ve been “members” since 2007 who have 0, that’s ZERO posts and there are dozens and dozens of longtime zero post “members” that regularly log in. Fucking have a voice. Not that it bothers me or anything ;) I’m done with that topic because the level of integrity, skills, outright honesty and sense of genuine camaraderie of those 20-25 of us that do post make it worth the agro of some of the sites issues.

Paul please name one Facebook fishing group that doesn’t totally suck and I’ll sign up. I’m in one group currently (nationwide) and like Woo was banned on Illinois Fishing Bandits. I said something way worse than Woo did “Go Bears” on opening day. Rules clearly state you will be banned for non fishing posts. Wow. Woo is also correct about facebook & instagram being just places to post fish pics with zero information. The attached photo is 50% of Facebook fishing posts. The others are mostly stupid fishing memes (dozens daily) and a ton of shared links to other pages or links for products (Aux it’s all fishing related) There is no searching of older posts and posts aren’t archived in any manner. It’s not worth putting any real info in a fishing post because everyone just wants to see pics. No lure used, techniques, anything weather related, not even what state...on a national board. It’s crazy but! There are some good guys on there as well and that’s why I’m still on there.

Illinois fishing bandits is so exasperatingly annoying that it’s entertaining and when fishing picks up you guys who have facebook really need to join that group for entertainment purposes and then when you can’t take it anymore go ahead and say something to get yourself banned haha :D Oh and you’ll get to see a young guy who self proclaims himself “The GOAT of the Fox River” worth the sign up just for that. I corrected him in case you were wondering

I love new tech but instagram fishing and Facebook fishing is not the answer in its present form.


Bassin' the Burbs and IL Fishing Reports are two FB groups I enjoy. They are not unbelievably great but they serve as a way to share some information, ask questions, and just read the thoughts of other local fishermen. But I also don't expect much from these pages either. I just scroll through pictures of bass caught from subdivision ponds without any information and I have learned to ignore any drama that pops up. But I am much more likely to post a question on one of the FB pages rather than make a post on this forum or Chitown Angler.

In terms of lurkers and non-responders, this is part of the reason I don't post reports and I have started to make fewer posts overall. You post something substantial and then 50 people view it with one response. Why share places you fish and ideas you have spent a lot of time considering and get very little feedback in return? I wouldn't be complaining about it unless this topic came up. It's just much easier to change how I post. As time goes on, I find myself just reading more and posting less.
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Re: New Members?

Postby Ken G » Feb Sun 10, 2019 8:37 am

HA!

I made it public again a few months ago to see if anyone would notice. They didn't.

http://www.wadauwant.com/wd_journal/index.php

Even the 8 guys that were there privately stopped posting over a year ago. Everyone is busy with life...

I quit fishing, so I remember to go look at it now and then just to make sure it's up and running. Since I can't imagine why I would post much, the biggest ***hole on the site, ME, would rarely be around. :D And since no one is posting, I don't have to worry about baby sitting other ***holes.

I have a story in the works called Bring Out Your Dead that goes through the death of fishing, hunting and outdoors forums and blogs over the past 20+ years. Especially the local Chicago area ones. I first logged into CLF when it first started, so however long ago that was.

Dumped FB, Instagram is a joke, on a site called MeWe but can't get all that excited about it. All of the once popular local forums are either pretty much dead or niche sites. Rivers and ponds here, Chitown is big water and boats guys, CLF should be shut down it's so useless.

I've got my Waterdog Journal site that's languishing. My photography sites I'm populating. I'm busy with other stuff. Keeping the wife healthy and alive first and foremost.

The forum just sits there and always will. Costs me nothing to let that happen.

One thing I'm proud of, I've been running forums and sites since 2000 and from the very beginning I've always said that promoting products in posts and comments are always welcome.

I always said that I will never run ads on my forums or my sites.

And I never have.
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Re: New Members?

Postby Woohoodude11 » Feb Sun 10, 2019 8:56 am

Ken G wrote:I have a story in the works called Bring Out Your Dead that goes through the death of fishing, hunting and outdoors forums and blogs over the past 20+ years. Especially the local Chicago area ones. I first logged into CLF when it first started, so however long ago that was.

I'll be interested in reading that. I always say I was born a little too late. I'm a lot more "old fashioned" than most in my generation, but not old fashioned enough to be called old fashioned. I enjoy this type of reporting more than the bullshit Instagram picture with nothing but the caption "CAUGHT A TOAD LINK IN BIO DON'T FORGET TO SMASH THAT LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE BUTTON"

This thread has gone off the rails :lol:
Lets Go Sharks!

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Re: New Members?

Postby crankybass » Feb Sun 10, 2019 7:09 pm

Woohoodude11 wrote:
Ken G wrote:I have a story in the works called Bring Out Your Dead that goes through the death of fishing, hunting and outdoors forums and blogs over the past 20+ years. Especially the local Chicago area ones. I first logged into CLF when it first started, so however long ago that was.

I'll be interested in reading that. I always say I was born a little too late. I'm a lot more "old fashioned" than most in my generation, but not old fashioned enough to be called old fashioned. I enjoy this type of reporting more than the bullshit Instagram picture with nothing but the caption "CAUGHT A TOAD LINK IN BIO DON'T FORGET TO SMASH THAT LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE BUTTON"

This thread has gone off the rails :lol:


I'm with you, Woo.
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Re: New Members?

Postby Aux Pleins » Feb Mon 11, 2019 7:13 am

^Woo but I thought you were a self described Googan Squad Fan? :D

Yea, I usually don't follow teenagers on Instagram, their stuff is definitely super annoying, I get your point.
Nature and shit.
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Re: New Members?

Postby Rambler » Feb Mon 11, 2019 7:33 am

Woohoodude11 wrote:This thread has gone off the rails :lol:

Indeed. I lost track of WTF you guys are talking about a ways back.
Keep calm and fish on...

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Re: New Members?

Postby Woohoodude11 » Feb Mon 11, 2019 4:05 pm

Aux Pleins wrote:^Woo but I thought you were a self described Googan Squad Fan? :D

They're great for entertainment, horrible for advice. Especially now that they're terminal tackle away from having everything they need for fishing. They only use their stuff now and that doesnt bode well with me considering the "hype" has a bag of their soft plastics at $1 a piece. I also had one of those Favorite rods too and just over a year later it basically disintegrated, 2 guides shattered and the tip snapped under very little stress. The only exception I make to the Googan Guys is Lake Fork Guy. He's a former tournament angler and is the oldest of the bunch and shares a lot of advice.

Don't get me wrong, by no means do I dislike the Googan Guys. They do some good stuff for the community and have done a good job getting fishing more mainstream again. My problem is they seem to attract a lot of the disrespectful part of the younger crowd to bodies of water.

God, I sound like an old codger now :lol:
Lets Go Sharks!

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Re: New Members?

Postby Aux Pleins » Feb Mon 11, 2019 4:09 pm

Those guys are better video editors than fishermen. I'm such a close minded Fisherman, I only follow local stuff. I'm not that into watching guys in Texas catch bass or guys in Montana fly fishing. I feel like all the local googan videos ive seen are on private suburban lakes surrounded by mansions or in southeastern Wisconsin with a local guide. That's crazy what they charge for plastics, I was not aware.
Nature and shit.
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