Was supposed to visit my grandpa today... but plans changed and I was left with nothing to do all day (as with most days-- stupid Circuit City bankruptcy lol). So I got off to a bit of a late start and headed out to some ponds near my house. I got to the first place about 11 and it was packed. There was probably five or six families there. OK... no biggie. tried for half an hour with what open spots I could get to... not a nibble. Headed to a different.. smaller.. less known pond. Again. packed. What the hell? lol. I didn't know middle of the day on a Wednesday was the prime time to fish. Maybe they all know something I don't know. So I fished there for an hour or so. Again... not even a single bite. WTF. Tried one more pond... it was busy too. I mean I'm all for families going out and fishing... but a Wednesday during the afternoon? Does anyone have a job anymore? Or is everyone a full-time fisherman like me? lol. 8)
Does anybody work anymore?
Jasonwelker0202
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21 - 40 of 45 Posts
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I would be more than happy to elaborate, but due to the time constraints and lack of space her to write 100 pages, I will make it brief.
There is a $2 trillion dollar price tag being put on this healthcare thing. Who do you think is going to pay for this? Oh that's right, the government can just print some more money. Like TGE mentioned, ask the Canadians about the limitations on their healthcare plan.
I agree that something needs to be done about the people that don't have any coverage. But why reinvent the wheel, by changing something that is working for the other's that currently have healthcare coverage.
BTW, if people think that I am saying this because I am a provider of healthcare, I am not. This plan is for medical coverage. It is not going to affect my business one bit, other than maybe being taxed more to pay for it.
I am saying it because I am a medical consumer with a chronic health condition that I have been living with for the past 27 years. I have medical coverage and it is not cheap, but it pays to manage my condition and help me to live a normal life.
I hate to see what will happen when the government gets involved. The government never makes something easier and better.
There is a $2 trillion dollar price tag being put on this healthcare thing. Who do you think is going to pay for this? Oh that's right, the government can just print some more money. Like TGE mentioned, ask the Canadians about the limitations on their healthcare plan.
I agree that something needs to be done about the people that don't have any coverage. But why reinvent the wheel, by changing something that is working for the other's that currently have healthcare coverage.
BTW, if people think that I am saying this because I am a provider of healthcare, I am not. This plan is for medical coverage. It is not going to affect my business one bit, other than maybe being taxed more to pay for it.
I am saying it because I am a medical consumer with a chronic health condition that I have been living with for the past 27 years. I have medical coverage and it is not cheap, but it pays to manage my condition and help me to live a normal life.
I hate to see what will happen when the government gets involved. The government never makes something easier and better.
I think you are rather fortunate to have the coverage you do and I guess relatively little fuss with your provider. My mother has actually had her hmo screw her over big time when she was most in need. She had triple bypass years ago, recently had a mild heart attack and pretty much requires 8 or 9 different medications that are costly. For the past year or so her condition prevents her from being able to work and she is still fighting tooth and nail to get disability (she clearly is eligible beyond any doubt at all) yet they pretty much forced her to get a lawyer whom is going to collect a good bit of the backpayment she will be getting once its settled.
The system is setup so these companies make maximum profit and spend as little as possible and will try to find any reason at all not to help you out be it preexisting conditions that are liberally used as an arguement (hey you had a cigarette 2 years ago this heart attack is your own fault we aren't paying you a dime) and its just disgusting.
I am glad you enjoy your coverage and you haven't had to go through the years of trouble my mother has, but what works for you doesn't really mean it works for the other 300 million people in this country. Ask around you will hear quite a bit of different stories.
The system is setup so these companies make maximum profit and spend as little as possible and will try to find any reason at all not to help you out be it preexisting conditions that are liberally used as an arguement (hey you had a cigarette 2 years ago this heart attack is your own fault we aren't paying you a dime) and its just disgusting.
I am glad you enjoy your coverage and you haven't had to go through the years of trouble my mother has, but what works for you doesn't really mean it works for the other 300 million people in this country. Ask around you will hear quite a bit of different stories.
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340 Posts
I've been cut back on working hours this summer as well. I work part-part time now and I'm a musician on weekends. Some gigs I really make a lot of money at, but it's not steady and there are no benefits.
I got my bachelors degree this summer and the job market sucks now. 3 years ago there weremany jobs I could have taken with a bachelors degree. I'm trying to get back into school and ride this out.
I got my bachelors degree this summer and the job market sucks now. 3 years ago there weremany jobs I could have taken with a bachelors degree. I'm trying to get back into school and ride this out.
If you have money to go to a dr you pay to see a dr. If youre broke then free healthcare is good. Im worried that the term "healthcare" has become synonymous with insurance. Insurance companies are the devil incarnate imo- they do nothing but take away they never add any good. Im more concerned with the weirdness where a dr wont even tell you in advance how much anything costs when you dont have insurance??? What other industry can they bill you without a estimate first? And how come it costs me 300 dollars for a office visit with one dr. ,And they keep sending bills asking for more even though I paid in full at time of treatment. And then when I go to see another dr. (one with much higher dr status) they charged me the rate they would pay medicare because I paid in cash, and it was only 45.00???
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5,187 Posts
Paul, I too am sorry to hear about your mother's problems with her HMO coverage. Unfortunately, that is what our nationalized healthcare will look like. There is no free lunch and the way that HMO's work is by limiting what they pay out by rationing. That is why I am so against this nationalized healthcare plan that is being pushed right now in its current form. If the average person took the time to read what was in the legislation, they would be against it as well. The problem is that people hear about it and think that it is the greatest thing without ever doing any research to learn about it. Do you know that the way it is written abortions will be paid? Do you know that after a certain age many procedures will not be covered? Do your reading.
Now enough of this. Lets get back to the topic of this post.
Now enough of this. Lets get back to the topic of this post.
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560 Posts
it is worse than the goverment wants us to believe. I am an anesthesia tech. And since the or I worked for has seen huge patient decline had to cut tons of staff me being one. I have applied for over 100 jobs nothing. If i dont get a job by decemeber Im going to be standing on busy intersections with a construction vest pretending to be collecting money for charity like most of those guys out there, Or fighting bucketheads for carp to eat 
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5,187 Posts
Here are some interesting facts about the healthcare reform. Doesn't make a lot of sense giving the government this much control over something that involves our personal life, but since people want healthcare reform it is being pushed down our throats.
Obama "health care" bill, excerpts noted below (pp. 22 thru 498):
e,g. Pg 58 Health Care (HC) Bill - GOVERNMENT will have real-time access to individual's finances; AND a National ID Healthcard will be issued!; AND Pg 59 Health Care (HC) Bill lines 21-24 GOVERNMENT will have direct access to your bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
Here's the bill:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin ... ih.txt.pdf
This 1,000+ page legislation was prepared over years and obama wanted to force it down our throats in days without providing us or our legislators sufficient time to digest what's in it and determine the societal effects that would result from putting such legislation in place. Sound familiar? Here's the bill:
Some issues the "Healthcare" Bill can be legally interpreted to include are cited further below. That interpretation is what obama apparently doesn't want in the public domain. Some congressmen stated that they hadn't even read the bill - & didn't intend to - but they'll vote for it anyway:
-2-
In a macro-sense, this seminal health care issue--which reflects nearly 20% of our gross national product--perhaps transcends politics. Forget the economics? Forget either side of the Congressional aisle? Is the issue, instead, our very aggregate survival? Best to read the legislation in the link above & then consider the validity of the following points--the excerpts--for yourself. Wouldn't our government advise us to do this? Why the rush?
Pg 22 of Health Care (HC) bill MANDATES that the GOVERNMENT will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self-insure!
Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments and/or benefits you receive.
Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!
Pg 42 of HC Bill - The HEALTH CHOICES COMMISSIONER -- a bureaucrat -- will choose YOUR health care benefits FOR YOU. You have no choice!
PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - Health Care will be provided to ALL NON-UNITED STATES citizens, illegal or otherwise.
Pg 58HC Bill - GOVERNMENT will have real-time access to individual's finances and a National ID Healthcard will be issued!
Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 GOVERNMENT will have direct access to your bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff-subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions and community organizations (ACORN, included?).
Pg 72 Lines 8-14 GOVERNMENT is creating a Health Care Exchange to bring private health care plans under GOVERNMENT control.
PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - In above-referred to "Exchange," GOVERNMENT MANDATES ALL benefit packages for private health care plans in said Exchange.
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - SPECIFICATIONS FOR BENEFIT LEVELS OF PLANS -
i.e. The GOVERNMENT will ration your Health Care! AARP members beware --Your Health Care will be rationed.
PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - GOVERNMENT MANDATES LINGUISTIC APPROPRIATE SERVICES. Example - Translation for illegal aliens.
Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The GOVERNMENT will use groups e.g. ACORN and Americorps to enroll individuals for Government HC plan.
-3-
PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.
pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVERNMENT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against GOVERNMENT MONOPOLY.
pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill -- Doctors/AMA - The GOVERNMENT will specify what you
can make.
Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer must AUTOMATICALLY enroll employees into a PUBLIC option plan. NO CHOICE.
Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers must pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.
Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Employer with payroll $400k & above who does not provide public option, pays 8% tax on all payroll.
pg 150 Lines 9-13 Any business with payroll between $251k and $400k who doesn't provide public option pays 2-6% tax on all payroll.
Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC according to the GOVERNMENT MANDATE will be taxed 2.5% of income.
Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill ANY NON-RESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.)
Pg 195 HC Bill Officers and employees of HC Admin (GOVERNMENT) will have access
to ALL American's financial and personal records.
PG 203 Line 14-15 HC Bill "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it says that.
Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill GOVERNMENT WILL REDUCE PHYSICIAN SERVICES FOR MEDICAID. Seniors, low income, and the poor affected.
Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, doesn't matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same.
PG 253 Line 10-18 HC Bill - GOVERNMENT sets value of Doctor's time, professional judgment, etc. Literally: arbitrary GOVERNMENT AND IT'S NON-ELECTED BUREAUCRACY determining value of human beings outside and apart from medical expertise.
-4-
PG 265 Sec 1131 GOVERNMENT mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.
PG 268 Sec 1141 GOVERNMENT regulates rental and purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
PG 272 SEC. 1145 TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing! Are you young enough to warrant care?
Pg 280 Sec 1151 GOVERNMENT will penalize hospitals for what GOVERNMENT ARBITRARILY DEEMS PREVENTABLE RE-ADMISSIONS.
Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Doctors' treatment of a patient during initial admission that results in a re-admission--GOVERNMENT will penalize doctors.
Pg 317 L 13-20 Oh My God! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. GOVERNMENT tells Doctors what and how much they can own.
Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion -- GOVERNMENT mandating hospitals cannot expand.
pg 321 2-13 Following up on above "PROHIBITION," Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can you say ACORN?!!
Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - GOVERNMENT MANDATES establishment of outcome based measures. HC the way they want it -- RATIONING.
Pg 341 Lines 3-9 GOVERNMENT has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing people into GOVERNMENT plan.
Pg 354 Sec 1177 - GOVERNMENT will RESTRICT enrollment of Special Needs people! What if your sister has Down's syndrome?!!
Pg 379 Sec 1191 GOVERNMENT creates more bureaucracy --Tele-Health Advisory Committee. Can you say HC by phone?
PG 425 Lines 4-12 GOVERNMENT MANDATES Advance Care Planning Consultation. THINK -- Senior Citizens end of life.
Pg 425 Lines 17-19 GOVERNMENT will instruct AND consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. MANDATORY!
-5-
PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 GOVERNMENT provides APPROVED list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.
PG 427 Lines 15-24 GOVERNMENT MANDATES program for orders for end of life. GOVERNMENT has a say in how YOUR life ends.
Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "advance care planning consult" will be used frequently as patient's health deteriorates.
PG 429 Lines 10-12 "advance care consultation" MAY INCLUDE AN ORDER FOR END OF LIFE PLANS. A GOVERNMENT order!
Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - GOVERNMENT specifies which Doctors can write an end of life order.
PG 430 Lines 11-15 GOVERNMENT decide what level of treatment YOU will have at end of life.
Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services = Non-profit organizations. HELLO! ACORN Medical Services here?!!
Page 472 Lines 14-17 Payment to COMMUNITY-BASED organization. 1 monthly payment to a community-based organization. Like ACORN?!!
PG 489 Sec 1308 GOVERNMENT will cover Marriage and Family therapy. Which means they will insert GOVERNMENT into your marriage.
Pg 494-498 GOVERNMENT will cover Mental Health Services INCLUDING defining, creating, and rationing those services.
Obama "health care" bill, excerpts noted below (pp. 22 thru 498):
e,g. Pg 58 Health Care (HC) Bill - GOVERNMENT will have real-time access to individual's finances; AND a National ID Healthcard will be issued!; AND Pg 59 Health Care (HC) Bill lines 21-24 GOVERNMENT will have direct access to your bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
Here's the bill:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin ... ih.txt.pdf
This 1,000+ page legislation was prepared over years and obama wanted to force it down our throats in days without providing us or our legislators sufficient time to digest what's in it and determine the societal effects that would result from putting such legislation in place. Sound familiar? Here's the bill:
Some issues the "Healthcare" Bill can be legally interpreted to include are cited further below. That interpretation is what obama apparently doesn't want in the public domain. Some congressmen stated that they hadn't even read the bill - & didn't intend to - but they'll vote for it anyway:
-2-
In a macro-sense, this seminal health care issue--which reflects nearly 20% of our gross national product--perhaps transcends politics. Forget the economics? Forget either side of the Congressional aisle? Is the issue, instead, our very aggregate survival? Best to read the legislation in the link above & then consider the validity of the following points--the excerpts--for yourself. Wouldn't our government advise us to do this? Why the rush?
Pg 22 of Health Care (HC) bill MANDATES that the GOVERNMENT will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self-insure!
Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments and/or benefits you receive.
Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!
Pg 42 of HC Bill - The HEALTH CHOICES COMMISSIONER -- a bureaucrat -- will choose YOUR health care benefits FOR YOU. You have no choice!
PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - Health Care will be provided to ALL NON-UNITED STATES citizens, illegal or otherwise.
Pg 58HC Bill - GOVERNMENT will have real-time access to individual's finances and a National ID Healthcard will be issued!
Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 GOVERNMENT will have direct access to your bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff-subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions and community organizations (ACORN, included?).
Pg 72 Lines 8-14 GOVERNMENT is creating a Health Care Exchange to bring private health care plans under GOVERNMENT control.
PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - In above-referred to "Exchange," GOVERNMENT MANDATES ALL benefit packages for private health care plans in said Exchange.
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - SPECIFICATIONS FOR BENEFIT LEVELS OF PLANS -
i.e. The GOVERNMENT will ration your Health Care! AARP members beware --Your Health Care will be rationed.
PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - GOVERNMENT MANDATES LINGUISTIC APPROPRIATE SERVICES. Example - Translation for illegal aliens.
Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The GOVERNMENT will use groups e.g. ACORN and Americorps to enroll individuals for Government HC plan.
-3-
PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.
pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVERNMENT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against GOVERNMENT MONOPOLY.
pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill -- Doctors/AMA - The GOVERNMENT will specify what you
can make.
Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer must AUTOMATICALLY enroll employees into a PUBLIC option plan. NO CHOICE.
Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers must pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.
Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Employer with payroll $400k & above who does not provide public option, pays 8% tax on all payroll.
pg 150 Lines 9-13 Any business with payroll between $251k and $400k who doesn't provide public option pays 2-6% tax on all payroll.
Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC according to the GOVERNMENT MANDATE will be taxed 2.5% of income.
Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill ANY NON-RESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.)
Pg 195 HC Bill Officers and employees of HC Admin (GOVERNMENT) will have access
to ALL American's financial and personal records.
PG 203 Line 14-15 HC Bill "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it says that.
Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill GOVERNMENT WILL REDUCE PHYSICIAN SERVICES FOR MEDICAID. Seniors, low income, and the poor affected.
Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, doesn't matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same.
PG 253 Line 10-18 HC Bill - GOVERNMENT sets value of Doctor's time, professional judgment, etc. Literally: arbitrary GOVERNMENT AND IT'S NON-ELECTED BUREAUCRACY determining value of human beings outside and apart from medical expertise.
-4-
PG 265 Sec 1131 GOVERNMENT mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.
PG 268 Sec 1141 GOVERNMENT regulates rental and purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
PG 272 SEC. 1145 TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing! Are you young enough to warrant care?
Pg 280 Sec 1151 GOVERNMENT will penalize hospitals for what GOVERNMENT ARBITRARILY DEEMS PREVENTABLE RE-ADMISSIONS.
Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Doctors' treatment of a patient during initial admission that results in a re-admission--GOVERNMENT will penalize doctors.
Pg 317 L 13-20 Oh My God! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. GOVERNMENT tells Doctors what and how much they can own.
Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion -- GOVERNMENT mandating hospitals cannot expand.
pg 321 2-13 Following up on above "PROHIBITION," Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can you say ACORN?!!
Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - GOVERNMENT MANDATES establishment of outcome based measures. HC the way they want it -- RATIONING.
Pg 341 Lines 3-9 GOVERNMENT has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing people into GOVERNMENT plan.
Pg 354 Sec 1177 - GOVERNMENT will RESTRICT enrollment of Special Needs people! What if your sister has Down's syndrome?!!
Pg 379 Sec 1191 GOVERNMENT creates more bureaucracy --Tele-Health Advisory Committee. Can you say HC by phone?
PG 425 Lines 4-12 GOVERNMENT MANDATES Advance Care Planning Consultation. THINK -- Senior Citizens end of life.
Pg 425 Lines 17-19 GOVERNMENT will instruct AND consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. MANDATORY!
-5-
PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 GOVERNMENT provides APPROVED list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.
PG 427 Lines 15-24 GOVERNMENT MANDATES program for orders for end of life. GOVERNMENT has a say in how YOUR life ends.
Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "advance care planning consult" will be used frequently as patient's health deteriorates.
PG 429 Lines 10-12 "advance care consultation" MAY INCLUDE AN ORDER FOR END OF LIFE PLANS. A GOVERNMENT order!
Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - GOVERNMENT specifies which Doctors can write an end of life order.
PG 430 Lines 11-15 GOVERNMENT decide what level of treatment YOU will have at end of life.
Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services = Non-profit organizations. HELLO! ACORN Medical Services here?!!
Page 472 Lines 14-17 Payment to COMMUNITY-BASED organization. 1 monthly payment to a community-based organization. Like ACORN?!!
PG 489 Sec 1308 GOVERNMENT will cover Marriage and Family therapy. Which means they will insert GOVERNMENT into your marriage.
Pg 494-498 GOVERNMENT will cover Mental Health Services INCLUDING defining, creating, and rationing those services.
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428 Posts
THE SIMPLEST REPLY IS NO NOONE IS WORKIN
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457 Posts
Why is he a conservative for simply stating what is in the bill.You would have to be a communist to like that bill. Also, why am I lucky to have health insurance that I pay for? No one gave it to me. I pay for the M#%*f*cker. The sense of "entitlement" in this country has gotten out of control. Aside from real people who abviously can't take care of themselves. If you want something in this life, get off your ass and go get it.Paul said:
Did you read the little side comments next to most of those? Saying this bill supports ACORN about 10 times? Thats a little bit over the top if you ask me. Saying government is going to be in your marriage? I guess they didn't realize government is already in marriage seeing as they have a very minor issue right now saying who certain types of people can and can't marry.Seebass said:
Its not so much a sense of entitlement, its more along the lines of other countries that are not considered wealthy like America have much better healthcare, for a country that claims to be one of the wealthiest in the world, you would think they would be able to do what countries not as wealthy as we are/were can.
I guess you didn't read the part where I said my mother was covered but got screwed over big time despite paying them money, I guess you haven't had a major health problem yet, it is a bit naive of you to think that these companies are going to be jumping for joy when you have a huge medical emergency and are going to be showering you with money to help pay for your expenses. They will look for any reason in most cases to not pay you, they pay people to pry into your past and in some cases will even shadow a person for a while to look for reasons to not cover certain things. Just because you pay for it doesn't mean you will reap the benefits when you need.
The one job my mother was able to get for a brief time after her heart attack had a health plan that didn't cover anything for pre-existing conditions until after one year of employment. That means paying full price for any medications already on, paying full price for follow up visits to the doctor for her hearth problems, even paying 600 dollars for a 5 mile ambulance ride to the hospital had she had another emergency (thankfully she hasn't). All I am saying is just because you have coverage, it doesn't mean you are really covered. Government run healthcare may not be the most efficient, but it would be better than private companies who are in it for pure profit rather than helping people out.
Its nice of you to argue my imput with opinions. I am stating facts and you are fighting them with mere opionions. Gay marriage is wrong? I stated the government is already involved in who we can and can't marry countering the point made from the post saying that government will be in our marriages because of this new bill. I was pointing out that this is nothing new and you come out like a kid going WELL GAY MARRIAGE IS WRONG ANYWAYS! That is just downright childish. I don't get my facts from extreme ended documentaries, I get them from personal experience as well as years of college (those text books have some pretty handy information in them when not used as as a cup holder).
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959 Posts
How did we go from a discussion about those who are out of work to a heated political debate over health care? I mean, really??
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