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Thank you Matt. You are always the voice of reason.

First I'm not an antivaxxer. I think it's a personal decision not a government one.

Second I believe at conception we have a human. In my eyes abortion is murder. I know there are circumstances where the mothers life is in jeopardy. Her life should take precedence but to kill a fetus because someone just doesn't want to have a baby, really that's ok. Here is a depiction of a 12 week fetus that can be legally aborted. At this stage the weight is about .5 oz and all the organs are in place. Take a good look at it.
2B0552E9-7CFE-4F7F-9187-0F9BC4075A99.gif


Maybe a child will be deformed or severely disabled is that still a reason to kill them? If it is would we still do it if the problem occurred after they were born? Say a person is 17 (pick an age) and has some catastrophe that disables them should they be eliminated?

~JOE~
 

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I don't disagree with you regarding conception. But I don't believe it's my right to tell someone that. We're both arguing about the right to choose something. Wether you are an anti-vaxxer or not. I do think that sets off a whole series of choice debates.
Employers requiring employees be vaccinated have given their employees a choice.
More and more society is giving anti-vaxxers a choice.
Sorry, I'm a little stoned.
I'm getting pissed at people for not helping stop CoVid so I don't have to wear a mask on an airplane or in a store. I'm vaccinated, so are most people. It's like the guy basic training that keeps screwing things up so everybody pays.
 

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BrookeT said:
I don't disagree with you regarding conception. But I don't believe it's my right to tell someone that. We're both arguing about the right to choose something. Wether you are an anti-vaxxer or not. I do think that sets off a whole series of choice debates.
Employers requiring employees be vaccinated have given their employees a choice.
More and more society is giving anti-vaxxers a choice.
Sorry, I'm a little stoned.
I'm getting pissed at people for not helping stop CoVid so I don't have to wear a mask on an airplane or in a store. I'm vaccinated, so are most people. It's like the guy basic training that keeps screwing things up so everybody pays.
In boot camp they teach you how he a unit. Society is not a unit and treating it as such leads to a lot of bad things.
 

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Just stop it. Vaccines save lives. And by the way, there isn't a product anyone consumes that isn't regulated by the government. Don't understand people choosing the one that keeps the pandemic going, real smart.
 

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Brett said:
Because replacing fathers with the state and forcing people to inject things into their bodies or suffer economic consequences both increase the power of the state.
Hear, hear!

BrookeT said:
anti-vaxxers
I dig the use of loaded words that stirs the blood, it's rather nostalgic but in other circles it's trite.

Rambler great post. These are great questions of the day, pivotal ones for our nation.

I really worry about this, more than Wuhan or most other issues, am I being too parochial?
Screenshot_20210827-001439_Chrome.jpg
 

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Again " my body, my choice." Why doesn't that apply here?
Because it's a communicable disease. It's sort of like having an STD and refusing to wear a condom because "my body, my choice", and if the girl ends up with pregnancy and syphilis - hey, not my problem, but don't you dare to have an abortion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Because replacing fathers with the state and forcing people to inject things into their bodies or suffer economic consequences both increase the power of the state.
Please explain how Delta and other enterprises requiring vaccines to protect customers and coworkers increases the power of the state.
 

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Government is mandating it now in some places. Isn’t that increasing the states power over an individual?

Grain did you look at the depiction of the 12 week fetus? Are you good with aborting that? My point is that the same standard should apply. If antivaxxers should get the vaccine for the good of society shouldn’t we be looking at the rights of the unborn in the same way?

~JOE~
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Government is mandating it now in some places. Isn’t that increasing the states power over an individual?

Grain did you look at the depiction of the 12 week fetus? Are you good with aborting that? My point is that the same standard should apply. If antivaxxers should get the vaccine for the good of society shouldn’t we be looking at the rights of the unborn in the same way?

~JOE~
Joe: you seem to be conflating what companies are doing with government mandates. They are not the same.

Enterprises can do what they think is in their best interests within the bounds of the law. Our government is constrained by the constitution.

However this doesn't mean government mandates are unconstitutional. They aren't - especially in cases where the good of the country is concerned. For example during WWII the government mandated meatless Mondays and dictated how much gas you could buy.

This isn't to say you don't have the right to remain unvaccinated. You do. I just hope you don't join so many others who have regretted that decision.
 

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No Rambler I understand the difference between private business and government. In this unique situation we are in now some governments are forcing people to inject drugs that they don’t want to have in their body. I get it the vaccine works. Is it our governments place to make medical decisions for society ?

~JOE~
 

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It's simple. For years, employers have mandated you don't have drugs in your body. Now they are mandating that they will put drugs in your body. They are just being the invasive body snatchers they always have been. It's not too complicated. Just like the many women in your life, they own you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
In a word, yes. But the counter questions are, "Is it your right to make decisions that cause risk to those around you? Or should you take responsibility for membership in our society?"

Government is established to insure the rights of all its people. An individual's rights extend only so far as they begin to interfere with other individual's rights - this is in keeping with conservative, democratic (note, small 'd') political philosophy going back centuries. So your decision to remain unvaccinated interferes with other's rights to remain safe and healthy. IMHO it's quite simple - you either accept your responsibility as a member of society or you're basically saying, "screw you".

My best friend's dad - one of the smartest people I've known and a decorated WWII vet told me years ago his concern that our country was headed in the direction of "screw you, I want mine!" It seems we've arrived.

Sorry pal, but you and I are fated to disagree on this one.
 
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Grain did you look at the depiction of the 12 week fetus? Are you good with aborting that?
That is not quite like it looks. I won't post the photo because it may gross some people out.

I am neither good nor not good with it. It would not be my personal choice at this point in my life, but it is also not my goddamn business.

I am weirded out that you rail against increasing the state's power over an individual and in the same breath want to ban abortion. I mean it may not be you personally, but it irks me that pro-life crowd is also against sex ed, contraception, and pretty much the entire system of social support for young poor mothers - Medicaid, WIC, SNAP, housing subsidies, and whatever else there is.

And finally, people in this country have no idea what state's power over an individual really looks like.
 

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Now Rambler what makes you think I’m unvaccinated. I said I’m not an anti vaxxer.

~JOE~
 

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While I do think getting the vaccine is an individual's choice, I will put a caveat on that. As Rambler said, we all have a debt to society, as members of that society, to do what we can for the betterment of said society. If you want to stay unvaccinated(not speaking to anyone in here in case that needed to be said), then stay home. Don't go spreading it around to other people who may or may not die from it. Don't risk being an asymptomatic carrier, who can pass it on and never even know they had it. Don't go to parties, and concerts, and rallies, and massive events. And don't go to the hospital if you get sick. Stick to your guns. If Covid isn't a big deal(and for many opposed to the vaccination, that's their opinion, and a large reason why they won't get vaccinated), and you don't want to get vaccinated, then don't go to a hospital for treatment if you get it. Sit your ass at home and ride it out, since it's not a big deal. If you don't trust this country's medical professionals to build a safe and trustworthy vaccination against a pandemic-level illness, then why the hell do you trust those same medical professionals to treat and care for you, and try to keep you alive, if you get it? This is my problem with it. Everyone is opposed to trying to do things to mitigate the fallout from this pandemic, but then when they catch it, and get really sick, you bet your ass they're in the hospital to receive care for something they thought wasn't a big deal, aren't they?
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Now Rambler what makes you think I’m unvaccinated. I said I’m not an anti vaxxer.

~JOE~
Sorry - I was using the generic 'you'.
 

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Yep , smokers should stay home when they get cancer then I guess.
I love you Joe, but that's such a terrible false equivalence. The fallacy behind that argument can't be lost on you, right? Cancer isn't a spreadable, contagious, airborne disease. If you had TB, would you go muck it up at the bar, or a concert? Would you head on into your family graduation party, with a bunch of kids, and older grandparents, and generally a large amount of people in it? I think the answer would be no. Obviously TB is generally moot, considering we've all been vaccinated(which is the reason why it's not really a risk anymore) for it... but that's the type of argument to be made. Pre-TB vaccine, would you do the above, if you had TB?
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
While I do think getting the vaccine is an individual's choice, I will put a caveat on that. As Rambler said, we all have a debt to society, as members of that society, to do what we can for the betterment of said society. If you want to stay unvaccinated(not speaking to anyone in here in case that needed to be said), then stay home. Don't go spreading it around to other people who may or may not die from it. Don't risk being an asymptomatic carrier, who can pass it on and never even know they had it. Don't go to parties, and concerts, and rallies, and massive events. And don't go to the hospital if you get sick. Stick to your guns. If Covid isn't a big deal(and for many opposed to the vaccination, that's their opinion, and a large reason why they won't get vaccinated), and you don't want to get vaccinated, then don't go to a hospital for treatment if you get it. Sit your ass at home and ride it out, since it's not a big deal. If you don't trust this country's medical professionals to build a safe and trustworthy vaccination against a pandemic-level illness, then why the hell do you trust those same medical professionals to treat and care for you, and try to keep you alive, if you get it? This is my problem with it. Everyone is opposed to trying to do things to mitigate the fallout from this pandemic, but then when they catch it, and get really sick, you bet your ass they're in the hospital to receive care for something they thought wasn't a big deal, aren't they?
Good points.
 
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The cancer thing speaks to the point of caring for everyone. Why propose caring for vaccinated only if we care about all of society.

ps: I love these discussions. So many diverse opinions even though I’m always in the minority.

~JOE~
 
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